It was just a matter of time before New Calvinism found a way to resurrect its leading icon. Q. This has taken a toll on me and my family, as well as those close to me, the former senior pastor wrote in a letter posted on the ROCs website. Yes he was forgiven, but be spent years away from his former life, maybe to relearn what Christ Jesus was about. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog. Mencken: No one in this world, so far as I know and I have searched the records for years, and employed agents to help me has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. (glorifies paul. Do any of you who oppose Driscoll preaching or running a church again, is there a way he could ever get forgiveness from yall to do that sort of ministry again? He is a draw. I'm not sure I find that expansion of "serious sin" cheating? Seems odd that Robert, Tom Lane and Jimmy Evans need to be pounding their book sales so hard when they are all getting raptured in the next 3.5 years. Im really glad that you are reaching out to GW and other exiles. We use cookies to ensure that we give you the best experience on our website. I followed up on the link and have been sharing this song with families and friends! No coffee bar, etc. . The last time Robert Morris met and greeted anyone as part of his service he still had his braces/retainer on. Missouri has not limited attendance at houses of worship but has advised social distancing. Pastor John Lindell mentioned that Mark and Grace founded Mars Hill Church eighteen years ago. "Homosexual sin is not the only serious sin. Nancy people have said to stay involved in churches to keep them encouraged to follow the Lord and speak up if they are going away towards money and corruption, that is no longer even possible, you can get shunned slandered and prob threats to your life for speaking up anymore. At some point, with enough outcry and rage from outside, they may hopefully see it as you did looking up at that 3 x 5 card on your bulletin. Join us LIVE every Sunday at 9am, 10:45am, 12:30pm and 7pm! Interestingly, he chose the title of his message to be 'Paul the Forgiven' and goes on to say that Paul has a name change because of a life change. was paul asking for forgiveness? Church buildings do not equal Jesus Christ. When that donor eventually supported our decision to leave peaceably, Jamie Munson was in a pickle. Again. until he apologizes to the elders and church members he hurt so badly i dont think there will be a true repentance that God can use. It was dingy and old. Ironically, in giving this speech, Lindell was doing just that shooting the wounded. One needed them because they were somehow spiritually qualified (?) The term was invented by Tom Wolfe back in the 70s to describe the superficial gliteratti associating with revolutionary thugs as a way to prove their bonafides. We have been led by God to support another ministry. Almost all of them pointed to Gods leading. It certainly looked like they had been coached on what to say. some have suffered unjustly. Driscoll should not be granted any level of power till he has demonstrated that he has obtained the humility necessary to handle it. Ches rise and fall occurred before I was born so Id sincerely appreciate any insight and correction. GW also exports as they seemed to pioneer or at least perfect the concept of having pastors write books for personal profit then when the books sell too slowly, they have the main church and all their friend churches purchase the books in bulk to give away to the congregation resulting in transferring thousands of tithe dollars to individual pastors. Connection ends, shunning begins and the cycle begins all over again with the next batch of newbies. Was Pastor Lindells statement just a slip or an attempt to rewrite history? I had never heard someone talk like that. God,I am running for your heart until my soul is on fire? If others havent heard this song yet, give it a try and see what you think. Pastor daddy Mike Baker is furious and says he's been mistreated-"slander," etc. Is this similar to Radical Chic? Mark pretty much mandated participation in weekly Life Groups plus you had to use their social media platform The City to stay connected. COuld someone explain how its supposed to work without a leader . I have read many accounts that his nickname throughout life was el chancho (pig). any way i am still wrestling with my view of my world and churches and like you mentioned, gun shy when i go into a new church. Im guessing Driscolls trying to resurrect his career by going into Charismatic type denominations or churches. And i honestly had no idea that that phrase was in there. The resistance is to Jesus. Why would either (or any) group that knew him in his previous state ever trust him without lots of evidence of change. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. i am going to get a can of alpha-wolf-away and spray out my apartment now. I wish I knewits beyond comprehension. I am not the judge of the hearts of men, but God has given us clues to the genuine presence of the Spirit, and I did not see it. We dont hear about them so much, unfortunately, because they are not so concerned with informing the world about their humility. his heart is revealed by the countenance of his face. (I guess angles smile a lot) They stay in and around the very thing that ruined them in the first place. What in the world could someone with his outlandish views contribute to conferences at Hillsong or James River? Sam, I sincerely hope that nothing Ive written ever makes you rethink your relationship with God. Mark is playing the victim. *MD and Mark Demoss calculated an irresistible snow job, tailored just for pentecostalworld (who are generally open to things without empirical proof). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpman_drama_triangle, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/, https://musingsfromunderthebus.wordpress.com/2015/02/13/mars-hill-church-true-religion-does-not-abandon-orphans-and-widows-in-their-distress/, http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/answers/jewish-polemics/texts/christian-proof-texting/, http://godsbreath.net/2007/11/07/qualifications-for-pastors/, http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1989926/posts, http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising, http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-10-07/royal-commission-child-sexual-abuse-investigates-hillsong/5795308, http://www.nancyalcorn.com/search?updated-min=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2009-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=21, http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/, http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-conference-shows-interview-with-controversial-us-pastor-mark-driscoll-20150630-gi1y6d.html, http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/distraction-down-under-hillsong-mark-driscoll-conference.html, In reply to forgiven-to-be-forgiving . And then they wonder that people not in their bubble have very little understanding for their version of religion and cry persecution. Im sure someone wittier than I can do something with his Training ourselves to sense right from wrong. In February 2008, less than two months after his promise not to abandon our orphans, we received a letter from Scott Thomas. The Washington Post published the following headline last Sunday: Controversial preacher Mark Driscoll stripped from megachurch Hillsong conference lineup link. Restaurants and bars / taverns also use atmosphere teams. No one has to agree with me. The mighty Kari Jobe is featured in some of the faking it videos they play in the classes. You sure would think so, but to quote H.L. Some Pentecostals or Charismatics are okay with women being preachers or teachers. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. Because he simply cannot be trusted not to repeat himslefthus destroying more lives. A grunge rock Lord Byron mad, bad and dangerous to know. If one other person had confirmed my concerns then I would not have pushed my data points aside as just being something only I had an issue with. Otherwise, its authentic shunning for you. There is great comfort to be found in that. Great comment Bridget. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? Hmmm, trust the Spirit, and let them be killed like Ananias and Sapphira? Driscoll has been more than a jerk, he has shown the inability to hold power without abusing it. AFter the persecution and time in Antioch, Barnabus seems to make a decision on his own to go to Tarsus to find Paul. Mark Driscoll, thepreacher who stepped down from his Seattle megachurch in October 2014after being accusedof plagiarism, bullying and an unhealthy ego has beentrying to returnto some kind of speaking tourat Christian conferences. #driscollreturns paul most influential christian wrote most books this explains marks love of also writing books. This is off topic but your question has been the basis of discussion with many associates for the last 6 months, many recently leaving an authoritarian church. Its all PR spin, because they got caught with their (or, pardon the metaphor, MDs) pants down. If after many years of that, he wrote a book about how God brought about change within, Id be interested in reading it. Mark Driscoll has a lot of repenting to do and until he does that he should not be permitted to preach/speak at any church. @ sam: The disciples send him off to Tarsus and after that-there was peace for a time in the churches in Judea, Galilee and Samaria.:o). It was because of a backfire in strategy by then executive pastors Jamie Munson and Scott Thomas, who handled my discipline case. They did not want us to leave. I just do not understand this focus on hoping Christians leaders will actually and finally act like Christians when everything they have been involved with and built looks nothing like Jesus Christ. i think that Jesus and God are Awesome, the only crisis i have been having is in my view of the world and the church. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. He was defended and protected by his peers and they even tried to help him plant a church here and give it street cred but his family of churches franchise is over for him and he is lucky if 50 people show (mostly SGM followers and family) up for his church in a room at the Marriot not far from where I live. Pastors that dont understand the devestation they cause by playing God in peoples lives, especially women and childrens lives, have no business calling themselves christians and certainly shouldnt be in positions where people might think they are speaking for God Himself when they tell them how to live. But guess what else happened? For those who follow celebrities, I dont, this is the church that made it into the news last year. News articles and such are also greatly appreciated. sam wrote: Hasnt it been around long enough that either people (especially younger guys) are sick of it, or they have finally realized its harmful or obnoxious. I am still finding it hard to believe that Mr. Houston doesnt have access to Google, or some other search engine, in Australia. The virus is having a wonderful time right now spreading through this country, taking advantage of circumstances where people have let their guard go down. The bathrooms were tiny and not particularly nice. He doesnt come near to meeting basic societal criteria for a decent person. https://wonderingeagle.wordpress.com/2015/06/12/how-to-respond-to-a-faith-crisis-establishing-and-building-trust/. And so on. James River Church's 2020 Christmas service. The point of closed systems is to keep them closed. I do hope that nobody is still saying these same things before they clean up their own act. Judging a pastors or missionaries repentance is not being critical of pastors, its saying, this is a position that has really high moral qualifications and if you dont have them, get out of the pulpit. (Not that I waiting with bated breath). one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. Not here to argue about this, just pointing it out. In many ways, Barnabus is like Pauls pastor for a time. Christians have to be different than that. I read somewhere that the church that bought, I think, the main campus property has a female pastor. They are not good for him, and he not good for the people he leads. king does not stand up for you. If a pastor says anything positive about another pastor, they have something to hide. Before people know it, feeling loved and valued (and not realizing it was due to preplanned manipulation) they are plugged in several days a week, basically dropping out of their non-church activities. But you need to make sure you hear the second truth. It is all choreographed and it works! And he actually dismissed several of them as how Sissies or men who wear product in their hair act. Let's see. IMO they are not qualified to interpret the Bible. Lindell reused the Robert Morris line of chiding his congregation to stop shooting the wounded. It didnt occur to me because I havent seen that modeled in a very long time. I probably wont be won over to the side of communism. I wish he would try to get a corporate communications job or something though. rather than come in glory he came in humility. one passenger died. But one morning as I sat at my desk in y basement office, I looked up at my little bulletin board. i think bills reply echos mine mostly, if your question is what church should look like if we are all clergy. Sometimes people get the idea that everybody needs some church-recognized ministry. At this point it seems to me that this would be the last thing that MD needed if he wants to get himself turned around. Until that flaw is named and claimed, it is reasonable to expect this kind of thing to happen again. Gateway is so deceptive in all their practices. Mark flatly denied it, but I believe we may be seeing a pattern here. Does it lie with Driscoll/Chandler or does it lie with the people whom they want to trust them? Sincerely want to know what the alternative is. There is no painting a happy face on Driscoll. Albuquerque Blue wrote: it isnt anguish if i dont care and i am just a head of some church deciding that someone cant seperate or divorce or annul because i dont have time to look into it right now and i will get back to them with my judgment when i think its appropriate. Are you not reporting instant healing to keep the confirmed miracle count up? Monday, December 15, 2008 Persecuted, but You cant criticize me for a moment. And the same shtitck but did not call them atmostphere teams but hosts. now i am going to see if i can stand to listen to the whole mark speaks video. . I think people on all sides of these conflicts did some pretty horrendous things, as well as some decent things. "It is possible for someone who has been a life-long alcoholic to stop. Others obviously put a lot more emphasis on organizational structures, so they might see things differently. The true character of a man shows when you see how he treats those with less power who depend on him for his income. The worst of all the bad these churches can do (apart from sexual assaults) is brainwashing the kids into their cult beliefs so that they will not accept the true Word of God at a later date. I have to disagree Gus considering you mentioned brain cells. As a result, the IRS has guidelines on their political activity. I dont think theres been any repentance at all. Its all good until (insert question or issue). So, where are the reasonable people? elisabeth seton wrote: Watch LIVE every Sunday at 9am, 10:45am, 12:30pm, and 7pm as well as every Wednesday at 7pm. If a pastor makes a statement denying allegations, it might be that his words and patterns of behavior, actions dont match. Under the circumstances, Mark Driscoll needs a time out, huh? Many teach that when Paul said he was chief of all sinners he was claiming to be as evil as he always was. actually, i still think mark has a phenomena called mixture of spirits that derek prince wrote about. some things i noticed are in (parenthesis) When and where did this start? of course i have no idea really what is driving mark driscoll but thats what i think it might be. Great insight. Did Driscoll forget about the part where Saul went away for years after his conversion. it sounds like you have a story of sorts. He told me he will vote against repeal. (stephen the shepherd? I hope I am wrong. The lack of regard for the masking ordinance and therefore its fellow community members by this venue and its occupants is not condoned by the CCHD, the agency said. 15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face as it had been the face of an angel. i was thinking about how i probably sound critical to some people when i post on here about how i dont think people are apologizing right. I take it to mean: Don't feel so bad, there are whole lot of other people hell-bound, too. I did disagree, however, with this one sentence. I recently ran into Scott Thomas and asked him about his promise to never abandon our orphans. He was no longer at Mars Hill Church and was himself suffering a level of abuse from the Mars Hill Church leadership. Why exiles dont speak out is a strange phenomenon. Vulgarity and filth get fed to us little by little until we hardly notice weve ignored those first red flags and become part and parcel of the heresy. As Lydia has wisely pointed out, cult survivors are all at different stages in their recovery. It is all choreographed and it works! Thanks for that recommendation. The word "love" appears, Lindell said, because it would be unloving not to tell someone that when salvation is at stake. All allegation deserve to be investigated with openess and transparancy. OTOH, they may yet surprise us and probably even themselves. he smiles and there is love in his heart. What is tragic is that these events will lead everyone who has two braincells to rub together to come to the following default conclusions: He diverts attention from the real purpose, the Gospel, to himself. I had never heard someone talk like that. Do you know his history and what he represents? It was so heretical that even the MH staff saw issues and took it down. Pastor Lindell invited disgraced misogynistic megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll to speak at James River Assembly while Driscoll was in the midst of a sexual harassment and bullying scandal in his home church. now it seems that it has just gone to big business making a dollar off of Jesus name and some easy to quote scriptures. A lot of people will say, 'I got that. The text is not prescriptive. All you have to do is say some magic words and we end up being the mean ones if dare say we otherwise. He is a draw. @ Nancy: I still dont think he understands the harms he has done. LT wrote: Gateway also directly lifted the slogan every number has a name, every name has a story.. spiel verbatim from Perry Nobles NewSpring to try to distract from the reality that every member is seen as a giving unit number (no attribution to Perry, of course). He later boasts that he did not immediately go get instruction from the apostles in Jerusalem, but he does not say exactly why. Some are stronger and more capable of speaking out and as we feel able to I believe that we must. It shows also in our perception of ourselves and others when we still have areas of sin. stephen the shepherd is dying. and that it is ok to debate that point in public. This captures precisely what I have been sensing as well. I seriously doubt that most younger people then or now who appropriate his image (here in N. America) know much of anything about him. if mark is not truly repentant, (which is totally conceivable since he has never apologized for anything except being too unkind in firing people and running people into the ground under his God given authority) then this could be compared, (by sin levelers who will be quick to show up here and defend him)this could be compared to Jordan Root getting right back in the mission field and preaching about what happens when women and heathens in the press persecute godly people accused of child porn addictions with no evidence. Christian geneticist and U.S. National Institutes of Health Director Francis Collins suggested most churches should postpone in-person services due to COVID-19 until at least summer 2021, when every American is expected to have had the opportunity to get vaccinated, The Christian Post recently reported. LOL! Gramp3 and I were recalling today the first time we ever heard Driscolls name brought up in a church. If you become used to a certain standard of living, that does not mean you are entitled to that standard of living. Their statements to Karen Hinkley and everyone else may be complete cynical BS to pull the wool over everyone's eyes, or at least those of their pewsitters. Pews are in the old megas. Come on Lindell, Morris, Kellogg and Johnston. The Rev. I dont beleive that for a moment. He had simply accepted the rumors. Hi Nancy, I am a graduate from Sydney and I just want to say thank you so very much for making Mercy a possibility for girls like myself to be able to go to here in Australia, it has truly saved my life and given me a future. It seems like the big megas tend to adopt or embrace some of the sleazier or ungodly aspects of other churches verses the more positive programs like community services. If there is one thing I think is missing from the entire narrative of interpreting scripture it is the theme of wisdom running through it from Genesis on. Dont give into his deception. You would think that over a decade of Manly Man, sexist, dude-bro, preachers that people have had enough, the novelty has worn off, and theyre ready to get real about Church and the faith again? There was another couple along with us who knew a bit more about him and we absolutely amazed that this man, who could have been an elder, could not see through the act which you described so perfectly. Within a few months most of the members of Mars Hill Church withdrew their support of orphans under our care. 33 And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a place of a skull, Others appear to draw some type of inspiration from Driscoll. Also it is not where you sit in rows and hear a weekly lecture. and it even works better when there is cheap grace and forgiveness all around. Some of the current worship songs that I hear dont do too much for me. From my perspective, the problem with Driscolls repentance is the same as the problem with the Chandler apology. LOL! In his sermon, Lindell cites several verses to make his No. Ok, I looked up Hillsong because I know in the past theres been a bit of controversy about them. 34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink. Only when inquiring about membership was their any discussion of W2s and the appropriate amount to tithe. appeciate your posts and the others on this blog, i remember that, thanks Van, for the reminder. i found it impossible to take advantage of people, i found that if i hurt someone even unententionally i couldnt sleep until i made it right. http://www.standfirminfaith.com/?/sf/page/31866. Dont get Left Behind. Here is the gist of Driscolls message: its all about me and Im a martyr for the faith!, Same old Driscoll, full of male bovine meadow muffins. There will be a day of reckoning. re: Lindells article. It is certainly understandable we would see it differently. I know people who were previously baptized that jumped in to get the swag. Our model gets smarter over time as more people share salaries on Glassdoor. So we were allowed to leave in good standing. stephen doesnt blameshift, doesnt lose his temper, stays calm. Its all he does. All the celebrity has to do is play the victim/repented card. Internet users are also shielded from much of GW reality. @ Gus: This is not a measure of faith. I could not exactly put my finger on what was wrong. Thanks for your informative comment. He apparently had many nicknames during the course of his life, but became known by Che. It is not short for chancho.. Unless of course, they give up the celebrity/money/position and go into obscurity getting real jobs. http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2014/oct/07/hillsong-pastor-brian-houston-found-fathers-sex-abuse-confession-agonising Those who challenged him were openly chastised, disgracefully removed from membership and/or shunned until the organization he created finally said enough is enough and sent him packing (however, with a nice severance package). Most people have more sunk into that cult than they do their homes. You cant speak in tongues? Barnabus is described as a good man and full of the Holy Spirit. I just took a year of online classes at one of them. "It is possible for someone who has practiced a life of adultery to stop," he said in the sermon. This was a new song to me. ++++++++++++++++++. Glassdoor provides our best prediction for total pay in today's job market, along with other types of pay like cash bonuses, stock bonuses, profit sharing, sales commissions, and tips. stephen is suffering for doing right. How can they do that? If he is serious about ministry then he needs to stay away from those circumstances which enable him to get into trouble-money, power and the pulpit. one person, after 6 months finally started to say why they didnt attend gateway anymore and it made me wonder why people dont warn others. Blech!! And he was not originally trusted or met with open arms by the Jesus believers of the day. Help keep The Christian Post free for everyone by making a one-time donation today. Just show-biz. James River is a mega church. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And I saw it. your post, and this one i read on facebook yesterday: I then stood up and pointed out that 30 lines below the famous quote All men are created equal the Declaration of Independence refers to Natives as merciless Indian savages. http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/the-dilemma-of-the-fourth-of-july/. I have learned much on this blog and often from your comments which are intelligent and insightful. If I were Satan I would give the Wormwood who came up with that system a big raise (or give away their books so theyd get a fat royalty check ; ). Che badgered/shamed the workers that receiving a pat on the back from their boss/comrade for increasing the quota should be enough for them to continue to increase production without any chance of being compensated for it monetarily. I knew I was being set up when I watched MDs embedded church video posted here at TWW. i tweeted: So I can see why some churches would want him on board. You have no idea how freeing it has been not to be shamed into believing the best groupthink of celebs when in fact, patterns, polity, hierarchical doctrines and associations should have given us pause all along. In a statement Monday, the Christian County Health Department said they also received numerous complaints from the community about the services and urged those who attended to monitor themselves for COVID-19 symptoms over the next 14 days. If there is one thing I know it is that those around Acts 29 circles are now in Mark who? Mark also provided the all important yet elusive authentic community so long as you bow to him and stay on his good size. If it is all about numbers and money it would be a wild ride for about five or ten years till it crashes. http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm No body guards. Couldn't agree more! . I can forgive someone even without an apology. All the more reason that Driscoll appears arrogant and pompous to me and doesnt at all seem to understand the damage hes caused. Of course, we have yet to determine whether there has been a real change in Mark Driscoll's life. Now the shock will be realizing how far theyve strayed from those virtues. In case this was not a rhetorical question, Churches are tax-exempt. probably just my opinion, and I overgeneralized. Maybe Driscoll feels a notch above Paul since hes not called for any ones death? Then the authentic community unravels like a cheap Walmart sweater. the money that was supposed to be going to missionaries in another country had been intertwined with the general fund. He lives in the Show Me State, so go ahead and show me. What I didnt know until this year is how much they are invading their universities as well. I suspect that process would take a bit longer with Driscoll hes a bigger mess. I present to you James River church in Springfield Missouri this past weekend. then mark goes on to teach us that we must forgive even if the person never admits wrong or says I am sorry: vengance is where you make someone pay. notable pastors have been pouring into his life. Years ago, he spoke from the pulpit against the expansion of casino gambling in Missouri. Sometimes the writers have an agenda, at others, there is more of an assumption of knowledge that the original readers/hearers possessed that we dont. I am someone special, like Jesus and Paul. Some great insights there, Bob. He looked at me kindly and slightly amused and said, thats okay. This weekend GW is also doing Steven Furtick spontaneous baptism which are executed to the letter like Elevation. I know you are already familiar with it but for anyone else not familiar, it was written in the context of David and Saul. @ sam: